> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
question for Chinese learners
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adam19 –

Hi all,
I am trying to put a website for learning Chinese, But I am not sure whether should I use Chinese
character encoding or all Chinese characters as image.
I don’t want to put all Chinese characters in my page as images, but if majority of Chinese
learners can not read , I think I have to go the second option.

Thanks for any comments!

Adam

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imron –

Use Unicode. More specifically, UTF-8. This will allow you to use text from any language on your
page at the same time.

renzhe –

UTF-8 will still not work if the people accessing the site don’t have Chinese fonts installed.

But any Chinese learner who wants to access a Chinese learning website will have to install
Chinese fonts sooner or later, anything else would be totally pointless.

If it’s a site for Chinese learners, then unicode (UTF-8 ) is the way to go. Preferably with a
small FAQ section for people who don’t see the characters, pointing them to a free Chinese font
they can download or something.

here2learn –

Agreed. For people who don’t have chinese fonts, images are great, but if they’re even beginners
they’ll have fonts (or will need them asap).

For anyone learning chinese, IMAGES of characters ARE ANNOYING. We often use mouseover tools to
“help us read”, and the mouse can’t see what character is in an image. Get it?
OR we might want to cut & paste the text into a translator, or a dictionary.
It’s nearly impossible to look up a word online if it’s an image. I’d have to go get my big old
hardcover dictionary and look it up manually.

As a learner, I’d be annoyed very quickly if I was trying to learn from a site that used images
for any amount of text. I would not use that site.

(I am not talking about the occasional header or decoration, a few images for aesthetics are
reasonable)

renzhe –

Quote:

It’s nearly impossible to look up a word online if it’s an image. I’d have to go get my big old
hardcover dictionary and look it up manually.

Sorry for the offtopic, but you can also do it online, you just need a dictionary which indexes
characters based on radicals.

Xiaoma Cidian does this. Find the radical, sort the character list by number of strokes, and you
can find it quite quickly.

This is one of the reasons I like that dictionary over other, more popular ones.

here2learn –

Cool, thanks renzhe!

(still can’t simply mouseover it though, you know, for ultra lazy reading)

Lu –

Agreed with the above answers, if your site is aimed at people who really want to learn Chinese,
use text. They’ll need Chinese fonts sooner or later anyway, and then they’ll be annoyed by images.

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  > Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Is mimicing the best way to learn good pronounciation?
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Chinese Learner –

Hi,

I have a dilemna, I am Eurasian so I can speak Cantonese nearly fluently with a very slight
English accent (as well as English and French both of which I do speak fluently and fairly
accentless; the French with a very, very slight English accent). I have picked up ‘survival’
putonhua fairly quickly in the last 3 months – I can understand more than I can say – now I can
manage really basic things to get around Beijing and I am starting to have longer and longer
conversations.

However I just can’t seem to get rid of my Cantonese accent – this really bugs me though I knowe
it shouldn’t! It’s pride I know!!!! I am quite pleased that I can speak three languages with very
slight accents but I hate the fact that I am orally mangling Putonghua. I sometimes feel sorry for
the Beijingers who have to listen to me destroy their language!

What can I do to get as close to a standard accent as possible – I know that to obtain a perfect
non-foreign accent will be impossible but getting close would be great.

Is the only method to constantly mimic teachers like an unthinking robot…over and over again
until you get sentences right?

Thanks for any thoughts!

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heifeng –

congrats on your quest to improve your putonghua..

I think that mimicking can be a good way, but may not be the absolute ‘best way’….at least not
at the beginning.

I think that the processes would be a lot more efficient if you perhaps took a ‘jiuyin’ class with
an experienced teacher to improve your pronounciation and fix some fundamental pronunciation
problems. You probably need to figure out the mechanics of where you should put what for your zh
chi shi, z, c, s, x, j…etc. Then after you are better aware of why you are saying something
incorrectly you will be able to fix your pronunciation more and more on your own. Ideally the
class shouldn’t be mindless because (even if you take it with other students) you should be
thinking about why what you are saying is incorrect, as well as other students and training your
own listening skills…etc.

There are many posts on this forum about reading along with recordings and such too that you may
want to reference, which is basically mimicking the reader. However if you plan to mimic an actual
local, make sure they actually speak relatively standard mandarin before you completely ‘trust’
his/her pronunciation hehe…

However, since it sounds like you haven’t had great experience with teachers, there are also books
for the putonghua shuiping ceshi for hk residents and macao region students that you may want to
reference too, but I don’t know how much better listening to the PCS CD’s are and imitating them
in comparison to taking a class with a teacher.

Hope this helps…

imron –

Another good trick is to record your own voice. This can make you aware (sometimes quite acutely)
of exactly where your problems are.

roddy –

Learning some phonetics will help – how sounds are produced, where the bits of your mouth should
be for each sound, etc – that’ll help you figure out what sounds you are making, and what you need
to do to change that to the sounds you should be making.

But to be honest, you probably still need lots of time with someone who can tell you when you are
wrong, and ideally why.

renzhe –

A class or two with a good teacher will probably help you a lot. Go over pinyin, the tones, the
proper pronunciation of things like zh, ch, sh, and other sounds that aren’t used in Cantonese.

If you have a Cantonese accent like you say, then it’s probably exactly these things giving you
trouble.

Lu –

Agreeing with others, taking a class on the specifics on Beijing pronounciation should help a lot.
It’s quite possible that since no one ever told you how exactly those sounds are made, you
approach them not from a Mandarin perspective but from a Cantonese (or European) one, and so you
need to learn the Mandarin perspective or you’ll likely never get it right.
It’s not too hard, so good luck and I’m sure you’ll improve soon!

Chinese Learner –

Hi ,

Thanks for all the replies! I have had private teachers and now I am in a class. I am actually not
too bad with pronouncing my initials now after 3 months of bugging teh hell out of my teachers
etc. and after much practice – speaking a few languages did actually help alot. Though many
teachers gave me completely different ways to make an ‘r’.

My problem is remembering tones and also the ‘melody/rhythm’ how I speak. When in class – I can
repeat what the teacher says more or less. As soon as I am having a conversation with someone ‘on
my own’, I hear my tones flattening out and the ‘rhythm’ of my speech becoming a ‘guangdong ren’s’

This is why I am asking if copying the ‘rhythm’ of Putonghua sentences is the best way to go.

The rhythm of my sentences is completely wrong and I can never seem to make my fourth tone
distinct enough. Most people inform me my speech is flat (‘ping’) – I’m just so used to the rhythm
and sound of Cantonese – I’m quite a fast talker so it’s a reflex. I keep trying to remind myself
to speak slowly but I always forget.

I find this quite funny as I can immediately tell when a beifang ren is speaking Cantonese so I am
intrigued as to how my nanfang accent sounds to a beifang ren.

I think I will record my voice.

Lu –

I was taught the r- as: in between the French j- as in Jean or je and the American r- as in right.
I hope that helps, and doesn’t add yet another explanation
Seems Cantonese speakers have trouble with the 4th tone, they say the 1st instead. I had a
classmate who did that too. But now you know it you can pay extra attention to it, that should
help.

renzhe –

Strange. I thought that the tones and “melody” of Cantonese would be much more of a challenge than
Mandarin.

But yeah, in terms of “melody” and “rhythm”, I find that mimicking and lots of practice is the
best way to do it. The things I pronounce the best are the things I’ve heard the most and said the
most, not the things where I can remember the tone number.

AxelManbow –

My Chinese is poor. Yet pronunciation… do it like a local. Non standard yet so much more
natural. My Chinese sucks big time yet withought looking at me no taxi driver thinks I’m
non-Chinese. With a very standard accent that wouldn’t be the case.

Get a bunch of local friends and 讲话。

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  > Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Yale 130 L&S Transcripts
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Aloysius –

#16 – 成家立业
中国人常说三十而立，意思是一个人到了三十岁的时候应该已经成家立业了�
��成家就是已经结婚，并且有了一个美满的家庭。立业就是有了一个理想的�
�作和成功的事业。所以成家立业是一个人一辈子的大事，尤其是成家总是人
们所（？）特别关注事情。如果谁到了结婚年龄还没有成家亲人朋友都会替�
��操心，一定要想办法帮他找一个合社的对象。如果谁一辈子不结婚很多人�
�会觉得这个人不可理解。所以建立一个温暖的家是很多人的希望。从前传统
的中国家庭常常是几代住在一起的大家庭。上有祖父祖母下有孙子孙女，甚�
��（1）还有重孙子孙女。比以上的大家庭是几代住在一起，大家尊敬老人，�
��护孩子，互相交互，一起分担家务，一起分享幸福。每一个家庭成员都有�
�人关心这个大家庭。但在实际生活中，也正在因为大家庭人口多，家庭成员
之间的关系不容易相处。比如说婆媳之间的关系，兄弟之间的关系和妯娌之�
��的关系，等等。都是非常难处的关系。所以很多电影和小说里的故事都是�
�于大家庭的。在现在的中国过去那种三代，四代人住在一起的大家已经庭越
来越小了。一来是因为现在很小有过去的（？）大房子。二来是因为年情人�
��婚一国都喜欢自己单住。一般来说现在的年轻人都想有一个自己的小家庭�
�这样可以不受老人的约束（1）。可以自由的做自己想做的事情（1）。而对�
��多老人来说孩子搬去出也不见的是坏事，因为他们自己的生活也会更轻松�
�更方便了。老人不必每天给一大家人做饭了。而且做老两口的饭总是容易得
多。

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monto –

#16 – 成家立业
中国人常说三十而立，意思是一个人到了三十岁的时候应该已经成家立业了�
��成家就是已经结婚，并且有了一个美满的家庭。立业就是有了一个理想的�
�作和成功的事业。所以成家立业是一个人一辈子的大事，尤其是成家总是人
们所（？）特别关注事情。如果谁到了结婚年龄还没有成家，亲人朋友都会�
��他操心，一定要想办法帮他找一个合适的对象。如果谁一辈子不结婚，很�
�人就会觉得这个人不可理解。所以建立一个温暖的家是很多人的希望。从前
传统的中国家庭常常是几代住在一起的大家庭。上有祖父祖母下有孙子孙女�
��甚至（1）还有重孙子孙女。比以上的大家庭是几代住在一起，大家尊敬老�
��，爱护孩子，互相交互，一起分担家务，一起分享幸福。每一个家庭成员�
�有责任关心这个大家庭。但在实际生活中，也正在因为大家庭人口多，家庭
成员之间的关系不容易相处。比如说婆媳之间的关系，兄弟之间的关系和妯�
��之间的关系，等等，都是非常难处的关系。所以很多电影和小说里的故事�
�是关于大家庭的。在现在的中国，过去那种三代、四代人住在一起的大家庭
已经越来越少了。一来是因为现在很少有过去的（？）大房子。二来是因为�
��轻人结婚一般都喜欢自己单住。一般来说现在的年轻人都想有一个自己的�
�家庭。这样可以不受老人的约束。可以自由的做自己想做的事情。而对很多
老人来说，孩子搬去出也不见的是坏事，因为他们自己的生活也会更轻松和�
��方便了。老人不必每天给一大家人做饭了。而且做老两口的饭总是容易得�
�。

Aloysius –

Thanks for all the incredible quick corrections.Besides some unnecessary, strange IME typo’s, all
the corrections really helped me. I’m starting to see some kind of pattern in the mistakes that
I’m making. I’ve disappointed myself a little by sometimes focussing on just listening, hence
totally forgetting to use common sense and the storyline. This resulted in a bunch of nonsensical
mistakes. I could/should have just deduced some words I wasn’t clear about.

Roddy, I’m very impressed that you can just pull 茅盾’s name out of your hat like that. Monto,
I’m going with your explanation here, however I’m still clueless regarding the meaning/use of 罢
here. Does it imply something along the lines of not thicker than, indicating its limit?

For those interested, the transcripts 1-15 are on Yale’s site. A word of thanks to them for
understanding that educational resources should be on the net free for everyone to see, hear and
use.

monto –

Quote:

哪怕只有碗来粗细罢，它却努力向上发展，高到丈许，二丈，参天耸立，不�
��不挠，对抗着西北风。

罢
Light toned here, 罢 = 吧。
It has no particular meaning, just makes the sentence sound more colloquial, so that you have a
feeling that the writer is just talking to you.

roddy –

Quote:

Roddy, I’m very impressed that you can just pull 茅盾’s name out of your hat like that.

That piece (or an edited version of it) is one of the readings for the Putonghua Ceshi, which I’ve
been using for pronunciation drills. Took me a while to place it. I’d love to claim to have read
all of his work, but nobody would believe me, so . . .

atitarev –

Quote:

The Yale Chinese CH130 website provides us kindly with the audio recordings of David and Helen in
China and Listening & Speaking Chinese. The first 15 (of the total 20) L&S recordings come with
transcripts and are downloadable from the website.

I have just downloaded the course audio (texts) and found that they don’t match the texts (html).

Aloysius. Could you please advise the exact link for the transcripts?

semantic nuance –

I borrowed the transcriptions from monto (lesson 20). I just corrected some words in blue.

近年来不少去过中国的人都会为中國人五光十色的服装而惊叹。过去的二十�
��来，中国经济的改革开放也促进了人们思想和文化观念的开放。从中国人�
�穿着打扮上，我们可以清楚地看到中国人生活中所发生的巨大变化。今天中
国不仅是世界上最大的服装出口国，而且也是服装的最大消费国。在改革开�
��以前，也就是在八十年代以前，中国的服装一直是式样单一花色单调。最�
�見的颜色都是深色的或者暗色的，如蓝的，绿的，灰的，黑的，等等。不管
男女老少人人都穿同样颜色和同颜式样的衣服，没有个性，没有各自的特点�
��这种单一单调的服装反映了当时落后的经济状况。人们穿衣服不是为了装�
�，不是为了好看，而只是为了遮蔽身体和防御寒冷。对老百姓来说，很少有
人买得起贵重的衣服。即使有钱政府也不鼓励人们穿新奇的衣服。今天不同�
��，
美容服饰成了人们生活中很重要的一部分。很多人尤其是年轻人和一些白领�
��作人员，每个月的收入很大一部分都花在衣服上。人们不再每天只穿同一�
�衣服或同一式样的衣服。他们学会了打扮自己，让自己跟别人不一样。而且
不但年轻人爱美，连老年人也越来越追求美了。老年人过去连做梦也不敢想�
��花花绿绿的衣服，现在都勇敢地穿在了身上。美丽漂亮的服装使这些老年�
�感觉年轻了，更富有朝气了。中国的服装款式在不断地变化。服装设计师们
也在不断把新的样式和新的色彩推向市场，以满足人们的需求。从某种意义�
��说中国多彩的服装市场，最生动地展现了一个变化中的中国和变化中的中�
�人。

semantic nuance –

#17買東西

我们的生活离不开买东西，不管是吃的用的都得需要一件一件的买回来。可�
��并不是每个人都会买东西。有的人天生就会买东西，买的东西又便宜，质�
�又好。有些人天生就不会买东西，花的钱
不少可是买回来的东西却常常不令人满意。所以很多人说买东西也是一门学�
��，是大有讲究的。在美国人们常常依靠广告买东西。每个大型百货商店,每�
��都会印发大
量的广告。商家也有很多推销产品的做法。比如降价销售，特价销售，买一�
��一，等等。这些广告一般都夹在当地的报纸中。还有的商家把广告寄到居�
�的家里。很
多老百姓先看看广告上的价钱，然后决定到那个商店去买东西。所以在美国�
��东西，广告的作用是很大的。广告做得好，东西就卖得快。不做广告的商�
�恐怕很难和别
人竞争。另外美国的各种节假日也特别多。每个月份都有不同的节日。有官�
��认定的节日有民间的节日，这些节假日都为商家们提供了难得的推销商品�
�机会。商家也会根据不同的节日，在广告上推销不同的商品。在中国广告没
有在美国那么重要。不少人只相信自己的经验，而认为
广告是骗人的东西。在中国大城市的商业街上，更多的是
小型商店。有的卖男装，有的卖女装，一些常见的门市还有鞋店，帽店，时�
��店，童装店，玩具店，文具店，音像店，书店，工艺品店，等等。可以说�
�什么商品，
就有什么商店，每个商品的品牌也各种各样。顾客在买东西的时候常常靠眼�
��和手去判断一件东西的质量。所以中国有句常言叫货比三家。意思就是要�
�看几家商店多比较比较。然后在决定买一样东西。很多会买东西的人常常是
出了一个商店又进另一个商店需要花不少时间。所以要买到一件自己很喜欢�
��东西，并不是一件很容易的事。会买东西的人往往是那些有耐心的人，他�
�把买东西当成一种乐趣，买到东西当然好。买不到东西也不会太遗憾。

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