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thanks, Hu Jintao. thanks a bloody lot.
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channamasala –
My students simply refuse to accept that Cantonese is not the same language as Mandarin.
Other than demeaning their government (“The party line is wrong, kiddos”) and ending up being
re-educated through labor, any way I could convince them that it’s just not true?
Drawing the Sino-Tibetan language tree for them didn’t work. Explaining the difference between a
script and a spoken language didn’t work. Showing how they are related but not the same with a
diagram didn’t work. Giving examples of Cantonese words that are nothing like Mandarin (and I
don’t know many Cantonese words at all) and telling them the grammar was different didn’t work.
Since when does linguistic theory interfere with the Motherland?
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Anonymous –
Whether Cantonese is a separate language or a dialect is highly debatable. First of all, concepts
such as “language” and “dialect” are Western concepts. In Chinese, there is yuyan and fangyan.
Cantonese is labelled as a fangyan as opposed to Japanese being a yuyan. Fangyan literally means
“local language”.
Also, if you look up “language” in an English dictionary, it would tell you that a language
consists of both a spoken and written form. As far as we know, Cantonese has always used Hanzi,
just as Mandarin. I don’t know enough Cantonese to compare vocabularies with Mandarin but the
grammar is pretty much the same (subject verb object… etc.) Personally, I believe the difference
between Cantonese and Mandarin started off like the difference between British and Australian
English. However, since Cantonese and Mandarin have been “separated” for thousands of years while
British and Australian have only been separated a century or so.
channamasala –
See, but the thing is that they think it’s exactly the same language with just different
“pronunciations”. From what little I’ve seen (not studied) of Cantonese grammar, it IS
different…not terribly so, but it is in some ways. There’s a lot more to grammar than the
sentence structure. And although many of the words (including the numbers and some pronouns) are
visibly related to those in Mandarin, many are completely new words and not just a “different
pronunciation”.
I personally still stick to it being a different language. I really don’t think a dialect would be
THAT different from Mandarin, and the amount of time Chinese and Cantonese had to develop
separately probably means they qualify, and knowledge from linguistics courses I’ve taken backs
that up.
Cognitive linguistics espouses that although most people consider writing and speaking to be both
a part of what costitutes a “language”, in reality a language’s writing system is irrelevant to
the language itself. Many languages (Korean and Japanese) did not develop independent writing
systems until far later than the language actually appeared. Many (the Romance languages plus
Vietnamese) use the Roman script.
The only reason that Cantonese and Mandarin aren’t like, say, French and English (both use the
Roman alphabet, I mean, but you can’t “read” French even if you can say the words…then again,
you can “read” Cantonese even if you can’t speak it) is that it doesn’t have an alphabet to convey
that the words are, in fact, different. Uighur uses the Arabic alphabet, but Uighur and Arabic are
NOT related (they do share many words, however). Uighur is Turkic and Arabic is Semitic. There has
been a lot of argument over whether the various languages of northern India are actual languages
or dialects…I don’t know about that one, but they all use devanagiri script. It doesn’t mean
that they are the same. Urdu is similar, almost identical, to Hindi (with far more Persian words
and fewer Sanskritic ones, however) and yet it uses the Arabic writing system and Hindi uses
devanagiri.
But my students told me that since they learned in school that Mandarin and Cantonese were the
same, that they must be the same. I’ll be satisfied with them saying it’s a dialect, but NOT that
it is the same language. Also, “they are all ‘Chinese’” – an ambiguous term, used to stop
arguments – is something I’d let them get away with. But “Mandarin and Cantonese are the same
language”? No.
However, they may be good at English but I can’t expect them to grasp the difference between an
accent (Guizhouhua), a dialect (Sichuanhua, maybe? Or Fujianhua? The latter is arguably a
different language), and a separate language. For them to realize that they are different in some
way is enough for me.
channamasala –
Oh, notes I forgot above:
Another example – Korean and Japanese grammar is basically identical, and yet linguists don’t even
know if they are in the same family! Current theory is that they are related and both
Uro-Altaic…but who knows?
The point of my rant about cognitive linguistics is that the learning processes that go on in the
brain when you learn a script are far different and not closely related to those that go on when
you learn to speak. There are, of course, some ties in there, but it is a different….uhh….I’m
not a linguist, so I’ll say it’s a different “thing”.
Anonymous –
From what I know about Chinese history, I believe that China was an early form of a “United
States”.
As we all know today, there are many non-Han ethnic minorities in China. Even within the Han
ethnic, there are many subtle, and some not so subtle, differences. For example, someone from
Dalian is more likely to be different in both appearance and custom than someone from Guangzhou.
However, as communication and transportation means improve, people start to migrate more often and
these differences started to slowly disappear.
Traditionally, it is thought that the Chinese (Han) culture started around the Yellow River basin
and spred outwards. However, recent archeological expeditions (read the most recent issue of
National Geographic) discovered that as early as the Shang Dynasty, there were many other non-Han
cultures existed simultaneously with the Han culture. However, since the Han culture had the
strongest influence at the time, it *SEEMED* like the Han culture was “spreading outwards”. They
have found artifacts around the Sichuan region that are thousands of years old but are nothing
like the Han artifacts.
With that said, any leader of a strong nations knows that unity is the key to keep his/her nation
strong. As China expanded its borders, it assimilated more non-Han ethnics, the “Chinese”
population became multi-ethnic, much like the U.S. today. China needed a united sense of identity
and that’s probably where “we are all Chinese” started to appear. After thousands of years of
having a single united sense of identity, the gap between the “original Han” and those who were
assimilated became narrower.
As for the relation between Cantonese and Mandarin… I’m not sure what your point is but I get
the impression that you’re saying Cantonese and Mandarin are not related and are different
languages. I have to disagree with you there. Cantonese and Mandarin are dfinitely related. Many
Cantonese words or phrases are actually identical to ancient Chinese. The reason why Mandarin is
so different from ancient Chinese is the fact that Mandarin is mainly spoken in the north where
the geological formation is mostly plains. Therefore, Mandarin was exposed more to foreign
influences. However, Southern China is more mountainous and tend to leave the population more
isolated. This is why 6 of the 7 Chinese “dialects” or “language families” are in the South.
channamasala –
Yes, I’m familiar with the history of Chinese civilization.
But no no no, I do not think that they are unrelated. They ARE related, but they are not the same
language – or if they can be considered that (I really don’t think so), they are such distinct
dialects that a debate as to whether it is a separate language can be had. There ARE some
differences in grammar and very marked differences in vocabulary. They are in no way mutually
intelligible by speech alone, only by script, which I’ve already said I feel doesn’t constitute
“same language” status.
I know that Cantonese and Mandarin are related! Of course they are! They are both in the
Sino-Tibetan language family and closely related (no, I do NOT know why Tibetan is in there, I’ve
never studied a whit of it, so I really can’t say).
But I do think that they are separate languages, or at least very, very distinct dialects. I’d
accept either from my students, but not that they are exactly the same with different
pronunciations.
But yes, I know they learn otherwise in school, and I can sort of see WHY the government does it
that way, but I don’t buy it and I won’t take it as an answer from my students (I WILL accept
essays that include references to Taiwan being a part of China only because I don’t want to start
a real argument, and I even ignored a reference to the Dalai Lama being evil…but this is
something I think I can safely debunk without getting thrown in the brig by the PSB).
Anonymous –
Quote:
Originally Posted by channamasala
But no no no, I do not think that they are unrelated. They ARE related, but they are not the same
language – or if they can be considered that (I really don’t think so), they are such distinct
dialects that a debate as to whether it is a separate language can be had. There ARE some
differences in grammar and very marked differences in vocabulary. They are in no way mutually
intelligible by speech alone, only by script, which I’ve already said I feel doesn’t constitute
“same language” status.
I see, that makes more sense. What are some of these differences in grammar that you speak of
though? Like I said earlier, I only know a little Cantonese and as far as I know, the grammar is
pretty much identical. Ni hao ma = Lei ho ma, Wo ai ni = Ngo oi lei, Wo yao chifan = Ngo yiu
sicfan… etc. As for vocabulary, as we both know, Cantonese and Mandarin were separated for many
hundreds of years. There are some difference in vocabulary even between the West and East coasts
of the U.S. However, I would agree that there’s no way a Mandarin speaker could understand a
Cantonese speaker just purely by speech.
Quote:
But yes, I know they learn otherwise in school, and I can sort of see WHY the government does it
that way, but I don’t buy it and I won’t take it as an answer from my students (I WILL accept
essays that include references to Taiwan being a part of China only because I don’t want to start
a real argument, and I even ignored a reference to the Dalai Lama being evil…but this is
something I think I can safely debunk without getting thrown in the brig by the PSB).
This may be a little off topic but oh well. There are many Chinese (not necessarily from the
mainland) believe that “Taiwan is part of China”. By that I don’t mean the island of Taiwan is a
province of the People’s Republic of China. When people say Taiwan is part of China they mean
(most of the time) that Taiwan is part of “Zhongguo”. It has more of a cultural than political
meaning. I lived in Taiwan for about 10 years and believe it or not, not everyone wants
independence for Taiwan. There are many (Nationalists) who wish to reunite China under the
Nationalist government (or a new democratic government) and there are a *FEW* who wish to make
Taiwan a “special district” much like Hong Kong under the PRC. I for one don’t wish China to be
splitted up. As for Dalai Lama, I never heard anyone accused him of being “evil” when I was in
China.
TSkillet –
just a quick example of cantonese differences in grammar from mandarin. take the sentence “she is
faster than I am”
In mandarin, you’d say “Ta bi wo kuai ˱ο”
While you can certianly say in Cantonese “Keui bei ngoh fai” – it’ll instantly reveal you as a
non-native Cantonese speaker, because we’d use this phrase instead “keui fai gwo ngoh” – where it
is adj. + adv.
So the differences between Cantonese and Mandarin are really spoken – since the Mandarin grammar
is acceptable, but it’s not really used in everyday speech.
channamasala – i think a lot of linguists view cantonese and mandarin – well, the relation may be
that the Cantonese is much closer to original “Chinese” – while Mandarin is something much farther
along the evolutionary lineage of Chinese. I’ve read that modern day cantonese is very close to
ancient Chinese, or at least closer, while Mandarin is a relatively (last 500 years?) new language.
channamasala –
Yes, that’s once again my point. My students are Chinese (I’m living in mainland China). They do
believe that Taiwan is a part of China, of course. I don’t agree with them and they know it, but
they also know that I’m not going to argue it with them in class. They get all miffed when I draw
China on the board and don’t include Taiwan. I know WHY they believe it and why its such a strong
belief, and that I can’t argue with it because it comes, thanks to the “educational” curriculum,
from a strong sense of national pride.
And the reference to the Dalai Lama was, once again, in mainland China from a Chinese student. He
shuddered with disgust when I mentioned that I’d seen the Dalai Lama speak in Washington DC. All I
said was that I felt he was a very friendly man, and a very peaceful man, but that I don’t expect
them to believe me. I do wish they WOULD believe me, but really, who am I kidding…
I probably should have made it clear that I live in China and my students are Chinese, sorry!
Anonymous –
Well, things like that happen when you live outside the U.S. or countries the U.S. has strong
influence of (Europe, Japan, Australia… etc.) There is always more than one side to any story.
Ever since the Cold War, American students (and those who are deeply influenced by the U.S.
including Taiwan) have been taught that Communism is evil and all those who believe in it are
therefore evil as well. On the other hand, in “Communist” nations such as the former Soviet Union,
China… etc. students were taught that Capitalism is evil and all those who believe (or rather
practice it) are therefore, you guess it, evil.
You can probably imagine my shock when I discovered that Jiang Jieshi (Chiang Kai-shek) was
thought as a lowlife scum in mainland China. I was educated (until the fourth grade) in Taiwan and
Jiang Jieshi was a hero to us. On the other hand, Mao Zedong was our enemy and yet he’s glorified
in the mainland.
My point is that you can’t expect everyone to believe in the same things. Sometimes you’re right,
sometimes you’re not and sometimes no one is right. Even in the U.S., some people love Bush and
think of him as our savior (who these people are I don’t know but they have got to exist otherwise
Bush wouldn’t still be in the office), and there are others who are almost ashamed that Bush is
the president of the united states. Neither of these groups are absolutely right or wrong, it’s
just different point of views.
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